Curse

Mordakai · Mar 15, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

you paid $50 to get 4 characters in tyria. factions is $50 for 4 in cantha. by merging, i have paid $100 to get 6 into both. i will be getting more than what i have paid for.

That doesn't make any sense... and you fail to see the main problem people have. Why should there be less slots with merging?

That's the question, not artificial math games...

rollntider · Mar 15, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

no. You will still get all the content if you don't merge your accounts... you just won't be able to play the content from both chapters with all of your characters. --and by the way you get 8 slots if you choose not to merge not 4...

actually you are wrong, if you have factions only and you play a warrior, all warrior spells arent available. Same with every class. Yes both content is not available, but you wont have every spell for each class if you just have factions.
But if you merge accounts you get 6 accounts and have all spells access.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=14
"If you have access to Factions ONLY, you will get 75 skills per class (25 new, 50 old. Of those you will have 15 new elites and 10 new non-elites with 50 skills that will be considered "base skills". The new classes will of course have 75 skills each.

Faction only players will not have access to any of the current elites. This is all gathered from interviews and mags."

unless this has changed you will have 2 more slots keeping them seperate, but will have fewer spells for each class.

Eugaet · Mar 15, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Please prefer to my previous post in this thread.

Yes...

(4*0.50) + (4*0.50) = 400%

...is equal to...

(4*1.00) = 400%

ANet could do that by claiming the content is Factions is equal to the content in Prophecies and limiting us to 4 char slots on a merged account. That would be a logical conclusion and, had ANet done this, I would have been sad not have more slots, but I would've understood.

However, even if the content in Factions is equal to the content in Prophecies (which I believe it will be at least equal), ANet is saying to its current customer base that we'll give you 2 more slots for being a loyal customer if you merge your accounts.

A merged account could logically be 2x the value of an unmerged account, but by giving us 6 slots, ANet is placing the value of a merged slot at 1.33x the value of an unmerged slot.

Where x = value of an unmerged slot,
Value of unmerged GW:P slot: 1x
Value of unmerged GW:F slot: 1x
Value of merged GW:P & GW:F slot with access to twice the content: 2x
The cost of a merged slot to those who do merge their accounts: 1.33x

1.33 > 1 ...a merged slot is more valuable than an unmerged slot.

1.33 < 2 ...there is the value offered by merging your accounts.

Remember, you're only paying for unmerged slots. Equating merged/unmerged slots is like equating apples/oranges. They're not of equal value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You brought up the math in both your last posts, I jumped to shoot it down with reasonable argumentation. I'd been looking for an opportunity, thanks.

Your argument (and your math) was reasonable. I used it to show how you're actually getting value by merging. Thanks.

striderkaaru · Mar 15, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I really don't know what to say... you apparently didn't understand a word of my post beyond what ANet already told you.

no, i have read every single word. and yes, i do believe that giving us no extra slots is equivalent to leaving the two accounts unmerged. anet giving us extra slots, however limited they decide, is a bonus to a returning customer, because many would have been unhappy.

i believe what turns you off from factions is that fact that you have 8 profession options, but must choose only 6 (5 if reserving a pvp slot). when i purchased prophecies i knew there were 6 professions and that i could only choose 4 (3 if reserving a pvp slot). would i have wanted more? yes, i would have. but i bought the game anyway. did you know this? would i like more extra slots with factions? yes, i would. but the fact remains that anet will be giving us MORE than what we are paying for, which i think is the real issue at hand.

what i am paying for is not the options provided by the character slots, but what those characters are allowed to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

That doesn't make any sense... and you fail to see the main problem people have. Why should there be less slots with merging?

That's the question, not artificial math games...

is the math really that hard to understand?

ok, let's take it slow. let's say that we both have 1 prophecies account with 4 level 20 ascended characters with all quests and missions complete because we are the type of people who like to do everything 100%. this is our starting point. then, factions comes out.

you, since you want "8 characters," decide not to merge. you once again want to complete everything 100%, so you play through factions completely 4 times. that's 4 times all of the missions and quests. remember that.

because i have been fed anet's "bs math," i decide to merge my accounts. i get to take my 4 prophecies characters over to cantha plus make 2 new ones. guess how many times i get to play the canthan missions and quests? that's right. 6 times. once for each old character and once for the 2 new ones. by merging, i have gotten more game content than you.

does this mean more grind if i merge?
no, it doesn't. this is only IF i want to complete everything 100% will all characters. the one who has to grins will be you. you have 4 fresh new characters you will need to grind for skills, weapons and armors. i will already have 4 fully decked out characters with skills unlocked. i will only need to grind for 2 more.

also, according to anet, new characters in merged accounts can travel back to tyria. that means i can take my new awesome ritualist to fow. you can't.

by merging, i get more content, possibly less grind, and more travel options. this is not bs. please stop looking at the character select screen and think about what you can actually get with those characters.

Gargle Blaster · Mar 15, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugaet

I am in support of more slots. I'm just trying to point out to everyone how illogical their main argument is. I haven't seen any argument yet for the addition of slots that, logically, is any better than "because I want them". 4+4=8 holds no water because you are leaving out all the variables (the extra content) to promote your side of the issue.

Is the extra content worth nothing?

There is no need for an argument for additonal slots as the burden of proof lies with ArenaNet to prove 2 less slots is justified. extra content is worth somthing but why would there be a reason to remove 2 slots from it? if you dont merge your accounts you would get 8 slots. ArenaNet has an issue when it comes to the math it's 8-2=6. yup its just that simple...

-i would also not be making any fuss if we were given one slot for every profession + 1 for pvp. then i would understand why you only get 2 more slots as there are only 2 more professions...

Winterclaw · Mar 15, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxSilhouette

I am going to be honest - why do we need more then two slots? There are two new professions, so that allows you to make one of each if you would like or two of the older ones you don't have but you like, Or 1 of each. At least they didn't give us just one new slot making us choose a ritualist or assasin.

So you can have one of every class. Right now if you want to try one of every class, you have to delete an existing PC and hope you like the new class better than the PC you've just axed.

Loviatar · Mar 15, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

There is no need for an argument for additonal slots as the burden of proof lies with ArenaNet to prove 2 less slots is justified. extra content is worth somthing but why would there be a reason to remove 2 slots from it? ...

they do not have to prove a thing.

play or leave....youre choice

the reason for ADDING only 2 slots to a merged account is because of added costs involved in a merged account that they are not sharing.

that there is additional cost is based on the fact that these people have a lot of experience in this field and have had years to make this decision on slots.

if it cost them nothing they would give them to avoid this

bottom line is that they have the cost figures and we dont.

Katari · Mar 15, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Hmmm, again with the fuzzy math.....

The question is not if 4*0.5+4*0.5 < 6*1

It's why do we get 6*1=600% and not 8*1=800%

rollntider · Mar 15, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

There is no need for an argument for additonal slots as the burden of proof lies with ArenaNet to prove 2 less slots is justified. extra content is worth somthing but why would there be a reason to remove 2 slots from it? if you dont merge your accounts you would get 8 slots. ArenaNet has an issue when it comes to the math it's 8-2=6. yup its just that simple...

-i would also not be making any fuss if we were given one slot for every profession + 1 for pvp. then i would understand why you only get 2 more slots as there are only 2 more professions...

Please don't PM about this debate, we can discuss this in public

Guild wars from day one had 2 less slots than you could create primaries for. SO why are people complaigning about the 2 slots when it has been this way since day one.
If you keep them seperate you get half of the skills/spells half of the world content per account. Yes skills are part of the content. Just you wait till these people that don't merge their account get pissed they arent getting all of the spells in order to build that new uber 1337 "IWAY" or "55" build that just come out that requires both games to have access to all skills.

I had someone PM me that said skills/spells is not part on the game content. I am sorry but if ya think that then fine, go play Tomb raider, because thats what you would have just a 3rd person shooter with swords and sticks.

striderkaaru · Mar 15, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Hmmm, again with the fuzzy math.....

The question is not if 4*0.5+4*0.5 < 6*1

It's why do we get 6*1=600% and not 8*1=800%

no, that argument belongs in this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=128790

here, let me make this VERY easy for people who still think that 4+4=8.

your guild is about to do an elite mission in cantha to control territory and is coming up with a team build. an unmerged account has 4 out of 8 profession options (since your 4 prophecies characters cannot join), while a merged account has 6 out of 8 options.

Katari · Mar 15, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Eh, if this thread isn't about about why we're getting two less slots, then what is it about?

"Why only two character slots?" If not two slots, then what?

Gargle Blaster · Mar 15, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by rollntider

Please don't PM about this debate, we can discuss this in public

Guild wars from day one had 2 less slots than you could create primaries for. SO why are people complaigning about the 2 slots when it has been this way since day one.
If you keep them seperate you get half of the skills/spells half of the world content per account. Yes skills are part of the content. Just you wait till these people that don't merge their account get pissed they arent getting all of the spells in order to build that new uber 1337 "IWAY" or "55" build that just come out that requires both games to have access to all skills.

I had someone PM me that said skills/spells is not part on the game content. I am sorry but if ya think that then fine, go play Tomb raider, because thats what you would have just a 3rd person shooter with swords and sticks.

i PMed you because i did not think it was that important if skills were considered content...(i still dissagree with you on that point) Yes i do have issue with the way the game is from day one and i am dissapointed that things are not improving... im not sure i understand the Toom Rader comment as this game is more like diablo II... was great you had what 6 diffrent classes and 8 slots... those were the days... oh yea you could also have more than one account.

i enjoy Guild Wars i think it is a fun way to spend time. Does it make me a bad person becaues i question ArenaNet? i think they should explain why 8 < 6. --sry but fuzy math does not explain anything to me.

Eugaet · Mar 15, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

ArenaNet has an issue when it comes to the math it's 8-2=6. yup its just that simple...

No, it's not that simple.

That's the problem with the argument that 4+4=8. It ignores the key variable of content by setting it equal to zero. What you are, in effect, saying is that you don't think the content in Factions has any value.

(4*0.50)+(4*0.50) /= (8*1.00)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Hmmm, again with the fuzzy math.....The question is not if 4*0.5+4*0.5 < 6*1, it's why do we get 6*1=600% and not 8*1=800%

No fuzzy math from me. I'm not the one leaving out all the variables.

Can we agree on one thing? That a merged slot is more valuable than an unmerged slot? Because if you can't see that, then...well, the mind boggles.

You don't get 8*1=800% because that effectively sets the value of access to the content of Factions to ZERO for those merging with a Prophecies account. Call 'em crazy, but ANet might think that the year's worth of work they put into Factions is actually worth something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

i think they should explain why 8 < 6. --sry but fuzy math does not explain anything to me.

Because you're comparing apples and oranges. 6 unmerged is in fact greater than 8 unmerged. It's only fuzzy to you because you think, unmerged slot = merged slot, which is not true.

Petition for more slots, by all means, but please, please, use a better argument than 4+4=8, which ignores the value of content. It's really making the community look bad.

Swehurn · Mar 15, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Ok...so here's how Mrs. Swehurn sees things. I personally don't like the idea of being told by anet that they are doing me a "favour" by allowing me to merge my accounts. Allowing the merge (in my mind) has nothing to do with kindness on anets part. Factions, for as much as it may be a stand alone product...isn't the same as the original was. In the original we had 6 "new" professions to choose from(and yes..I know the game itself was new.....but shouldn't factions have as many "new" options as the original did?) In factions we only get 2. I have less options. Sure I could always use 2 of the old professions to fill the 4 slots that I will have available to me in factions, but why, if I already own the original would I want to make another char that I probably already have 1 of (or have made one and deleted already?)....Hence the idea of merging...you can take your lvl'd chars and loot with you...at the cost of 2 slots. I can't see that I would want to make 4 assassins or 2 of those and 2 rit's..and as already stated...why would I want to make one of the other professions, when I've had a year to tinker around with them?...(ya new content..new maps..etc...but why start from scratch with the same old options?) Truth be told, I don't think a lot of people would be happy...nor would they be willing to purchase factions...were the merge option not available. I'm not complaining about 6vs8 I just don't like being made to feel as though I am incapable of understanding the "real" reasons behind it....besides that...if there are new skills available to the old professions in factions...and someone merges...they can travel back to cantha....and have an advantage that the unmerged do not have....and as such they would no longer be on a level playing field...it's like being given a choice...that doesn't really boil down to much of a choice at all.
Flame away.

Mordakai · Mar 15, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

if it cost them nothing they would give them to avoid this

bottom line is that they have the cost figures and we dont.

That's the money quote right there.

And all these math arguments are pointless.

The choice between 8 unlinked slots and 6 linked slots is not the issue.

The issue is why are there 2 less slots for merging Factions?

No matter what the reason, unless Anet is totally incompetent, you can bet they have a good reason. They would not make such a decision lightly, and piss off people for no good reason.

Nesty_Angel · Mar 15, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

i don't see a problem in that whatsoever, stop complaining!

Renegade ++RIP++ · Mar 15, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

they do not have to prove a thing.

play or leave....youre choice

the reason for ADDING only 2 slots to a merged account is because of added costs involved in a merged account that they are not sharing.

that there is additional cost is based on the fact that these people have a lot of experience in this field and have had years to make this decision on slots.

if it cost them nothing they would give them to avoid this

bottom line is that they have the cost figures and we dont.

It costs them nearly nothing...

but they are afraid to miss the extra revenue of some people buying 2 times their product to get 1 full product. It has nothing to do with additional costs but all to do with a scheme to get more money out of their customers, get them hooked then offer less "content" for the same buck. Like a hidden monthly fee, only paying it in advance. But that isn't a cost... its a lost revenue...

the same lost revenue as not buying more chapter because of not offering 1 charslot per profession.

Mordakai · Mar 15, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

the same lost revenue as not buying more chapter because of not offering 1 charslot per profession.

And as i said on the other thread (wow, two threads arguing the same points, who would've guessed?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

That remains to be seen. If they make more money (by people buying multiple accounts), then it was a very smart move.

It all depends on how many people don't buy Factions because of this versus how many buy more copies...

For the record, I'm only buying one collector's edition. But, then, I only have two real characters on my account, so slots aren't that important to me.

I like your reference to a "hidden monthly fee." That's a good way to look at it:

If you want two versions of GW, then you are paying about $200 a year total (4 x $50 for each Chapter). $15 a month is $180 a year for the standard MMORPG, and that doesn't include any expansions (most MMORPGS have yearly expansions). So, let's say the expansion for WoW is $50. That's about $230 total for yearly WoW, vs about $200 for TWO sets of yearly Guild Wars.

So, even by buying double copies of BOTH Guild Wars expansions every year, you still are saving money over the competitors. Not only that, but each Chapter is totally optional. You don't like what a Chapter offers? Don't buy it. You can still play whatever you have bought, for free, for as long a GW lasts. Try doing that with WoW (even if you don't buy the expansion, you still have to pay the monthly fee).

Man, it just doesn't get better than Guild Wars, at least for now.

Eugaet · Mar 15, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

The issue is why are there 2 less slots for merging Factions?

Because a merged slot offers more value than an unmerged slot and is, accordingly, given a higher value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade ++RIP++

It has nothing to do with additional costs but all to do with a scheme to get more money out of their customers, get them hooked then offer less "content" for the same buck.

Except that they're not offering less content by giving you 6 merged slots, each merged slot offers twice the content of an unmerged slot.

Mordakai · Mar 15, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugaet

Because a merged slot offers more value than an unmerged slot and is, accordingly, given a higher value.

Sure, sure. But, value for us, or value for Anet (or value for both?)